[Chad Davis] 12:02:49 Hey everybody, uh, thanks for joining us today. Happy New Year. It is January, if you're watching this later, and you are here to watch. [Chad Davis] 12:02:59 Uh, some very smart people talk about the future of public media as we see it. [Chad Davis] 12:03:05 Here in 2026. But before I hand it off to Mike Janssen from Current, I want to. [Chad Davis] 12:03:10 do a quick thanks to Amber and Dave, my co-conspirators here at Public Media Innovators. I want to give a thanks out. [Chad Davis] 12:03:19 to, um, NETA for always supporting this peer learning community, and thanks to you all for joining us. [Chad Davis] 12:03:28 This is, uh, I think one of our most registered, uh. [Chad Davis] 12:03:32 webinars that we've done to date, so that's always very exciting. Please, uh, drop, uh… drop salutations in the chat, let us know you're here, let us know where you're from, we're not going to do icebreakers, and we've got. [Chad Davis] 12:03:45 Uh, upwards of 300 people there, but, um, do say hi, uh, and… Um… I appreciate that everyone is probably here to get a handle on what's coming. It's been a weird year. [Chad Davis] 12:03:58 For public media, for a lot of reasons. And, um… A lot of uncertainty. If you are, um… new to our webinars, we did a little session on uncertainty last June, we'll drop that into the chat here once everyone gets done saying hi. [Chad Davis] 12:04:14 And, um, you can catch that later, and I'll drop in at the same time, uh, the. [Chad Davis] 12:04:20 version of this webinar that we did a year ago, in case you just have some time, you want to go back and. [Chad Davis] 12:04:25 And, uh, check out what the outlook was at the start of 2025. So, with that, thank you all, and I'm going to hand it over to Mike Janssen from Current to introduce our panel and take us through the hour. [Chad Davis] 12:04:39 Mike? [Mike Janssen] 12:04:40 All right, thank you, Chad. So, I'm Mike Janssen, I'm Digital Editor with Current, and thank you for joining us today. [Mike Janssen] 12:04:45 Uh, this is our second time starting a new year with a webinar looking ahead at the future of public media. [Mike Janssen] 12:04:50 A year ago, the threat of federal defunding was looming, and now it's here, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting expects to shut down this month. [Mike Janssen] 12:04:57 We've already seen cutbacks, layoffs, stations dropping, NPR and PBS. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:02 And the year ahead looks uncertain, with some stations fearing for their existence. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:06 But, this talk to the system could also be an opportunity to move beyond old assumptions and reimagine what public media could be. And that's what we'll dig into today. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:14 We're joined by Steve Bass, former president and CEO of Oregon Public Broadcasting. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:19 Nathalie Hill, Chief Audience Officer at KCRW in Los Angeles. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:24 Erik Langer, Executive Director of the Public Media Bridge Fund, the new philanthropic initiative designed to guide the public media system through this current crisis. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:32 And Loira Limbal, President and CEO of Firelight Media, which supports resources and advocates on behalf of documentary filmmakers of color. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:41 So, we'll start with Steve Bass. Before retiring from OPB, Steve worked in public media for 44 years, starting at WHA in Madison, now the flagship of Wisconsin Public Television. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:50 He also held management and executive roles at PBS. [Mike Janssen] 12:05:54 GBH, WGBY, and Nashville Public Television. Last year, he formed Lakeland Consulting to continue his work in consulting and advising, and he is vice chair of the board of PRX. [Mike Janssen] 12:06:05 So, Steve, I want to start with you to set the stage here. You said that public media is now in what you called its third era. The first was pre-CPB. [Mike Janssen] 12:06:13 The second started in 1967 with the Public Broadcasting Act, and now after the rescission, we're in the third era. [Mike Janssen] 12:06:19 What will change first in this new era, and what has to change for the system to stay viable? [Steve Bass] 12:06:24 So, let me just start by kind of clarifying what I meant by those. [Steve Bass] 12:06:29 three eras. Um, a lot of people attribute the beginning of public broadcasting to 1967 in the public broadcasting Act. [Steve Bass] 12:06:38 And forget that for almost 50 years before that, there was a fairly active and vibrant public media ecosystem that was largely organized around, um. [Steve Bass] 12:06:48 radio and land-grant colleges. So, beginning in the 20s, actually, as early as 1917 on the campus of the University of Wisconsin in Madison. [Steve Bass] 12:06:58 you started to have colleges playing around with radio. So there was a fairly active kind of locally focused. [Steve Bass] 12:07:06 Um, public broadcasting. ecosystem that was loosely organized. People were bicycling, you know. [Steve Bass] 12:07:16 audio tapes back and forth, the interconnection came in later. [Steve Bass] 12:07:20 And that all then kind of led to the creation of CPB in 67, and I would assert that. [Steve Bass] 12:07:26 Beginning in 67 with the creation of PBS and NPR and the formation of federal funding for public broadcasting. [Steve Bass] 12:07:35 the focus started to become much more national, and you started to develop national brands, national awareness of public broadcasting in a way that didn't exist before that. [Steve Bass] 12:07:45 I think now, with the breakup of CPB, but more importantly with where technology in the market is leading, we are, in essence. [Steve Bass] 12:07:55 potentially heading back to an ecosystem more like the first era than the second era. [Steve Bass] 12:08:00 Which is, right now, the needs, um, for journalism are intensely local. We all know that from our work and what's going on with commercial and even non-profit journalism in various. [Steve Bass] 12:08:13 communities around the country. And we also know that the distribution function of public broadcasting, which is kind of. [Steve Bass] 12:08:20 Distributing national programs via TV and radio because of all the other ways that people can get that content is becoming less important. [Steve Bass] 12:08:29 So, it seems to me that we are moving into a circumstance in which we are going to be more intensely locally focused. [Steve Bass] 12:08:37 focused more on content and engagement with that content than we are on broadcast distribution. [Steve Bass] 12:08:43 And, you know, that's kind of the way. that's going to… to move. [Steve Bass] 12:08:50 Um, there are a few things that are… there are a few challenges with that, um, going forward, which is. [Steve Bass] 12:08:56 the loss of CPB is not just the loss of money. [Steve Bass] 12:09:00 The loss of CPB is also the loss of gravity for the system. [Steve Bass] 12:09:04 So, one of the big questions I have is, how are we going to become organized in this new ecosystem? And I have to say that I don't think that that's a role that PBS and NPR can or frankly should play. [Steve Bass] 12:09:18 I think that this ecosystem is going to need to figure out how is it going to keep itself together, how is it going to come together around public policy. [Steve Bass] 12:09:27 How are we going to fight what is now becoming a weaponized FCC? [Steve Bass] 12:09:33 PBS and NPR can be partners in that, but I think it would be, uh, not… appropriate for them to be leading. I think this has to be much more of a locally focused enterprise, where local is now preeminent as compared to national. [Steve Bass] 12:09:48 So that's at least the broad brushstroke of what I'm seeing. [Mike Janssen] 12:09:52 So, what do you think station leaders should be doing to prepare for this new reality that we're in? [Steve Bass] 12:09:59 Yeah, and we're now a few months into the post-CPB environment. I think the dust has not settled yet. I think there's still a lot of. [Steve Bass] 12:10:09 concern, confusion, destabilization, but here's what I would suggest. [Steve Bass] 12:10:15 First, I think that it is incumbent on every local leader to create a strategy and start working it. [Steve Bass] 12:10:22 Um, we don't really have a lot of time to develop elaborate strategic plans, and I think the old model of strategic planning is kind of out the window, so what you've got to start doing is figuring out where are you going and start getting on that road. [Steve Bass] 12:10:36 As I said before, you can't really rely on NPR and PBS to lead the way. They have their own problems. I think both of them are still trying to figure things out, so don't wait for others. [Steve Bass] 12:10:47 get at it. But at the same time, I would be very vocal with them in. [Steve Bass] 12:10:53 asking or even demanding what you need from them to be successful. I think that in public broadcasting, there's been too much of what I would call a code of silence. [Steve Bass] 12:11:04 Where we don't want to be direct with national leaders about what we need or what they're doing wrong. [Steve Bass] 12:11:11 And we kind of quietly mumble about it, or maybe not so quietly mumble around about it outside of meetings and in the hallways. I think this is a time for very direct engagement. [Steve Bass] 12:11:22 Um, I would also suggest building a strong local governance structure. For those of you that are so-called community licensees, boards are going to be even more important. I think governance is going to be. [Steve Bass] 12:11:34 incredibly important as we go through this transformative time. [Steve Bass] 12:11:38 Um, and I would also say that it's a good time to start aggressively serving audiences off of licensed spectrum. We kind of know where that's where the future is, and if you, you know, there was a great New York Times article, I think it was last weekend. [Steve Bass] 12:11:54 about, um, the FCC becoming more aggressive and weaponized, we have to recognize that we are still vulnerable there, and the fact that there are more audiences now going on unlicensed spectrum, which, by the way, includes streaming. [Steve Bass] 12:12:06 We need to increase our attention there. The other thing I would just say to people in public media right now is really think about whether you have the energy and the vision for what's coming ahead. [Steve Bass] 12:12:19 Um, this is going to be a transformative time, and if you have the energy and the commitment to see it through, that's great. [Steve Bass] 12:12:28 If you don't, this is a really good time to think about whether you've got what it takes for the next era, because these are going to be very challenging times. Exciting, lots of opportunities, but challenging. [Mike Janssen] 12:12:40 Certainly. Um, you pointed out that until now, stations have made many of their strategic decisions with the goal of preserving CPP funding. [Mike Janssen] 12:12:47 And now that that's no longer a concern, what new opportunities do you think station leaders have now? [Steve Bass] 12:12:53 Well, I don't know if it's a matter of opportunities as much as it's a matter of necessity. [Mike Janssen] 12:12:57 Yeah. [Steve Bass] 12:12:59 In other words, I think in the past, we held ourselves back from making some very smart decisions. [Steve Bass] 12:13:07 Um, because we feared the impact on federal funding. And I would say the culture in public television in particular has been particularly aligned with that. My experience. [Steve Bass] 12:13:19 Over the years was somebody would come up with a great idea, and if the first question that was asked of it wasn't. [Steve Bass] 12:13:26 What's the impact on Congress or federal funding, that would be the second question or objective raised. [Steve Bass] 12:13:32 So, we've kind of gone through limiting ourselves, and I'll offer a couple of examples of things that have come up over the years. I mean, we know now that broadcast audiences for children's programs. [Steve Bass] 12:13:45 is very, very small, that really the audience for children's programming is more on other platforms. [Steve Bass] 12:13:51 We haven't really wanted to make more aggressive moves in terms of what should we be doing with our broadcast platforms to serve people because of the impression we might leave with Congress that if we abandoned the broadcast service. [Steve Bass] 12:14:04 We are abandoning the service, which we aren't. So I think there's some areas like that where we can declare victory, make some changes, and continue our commitment, but also use our broadcast services more effectively for the current environment. [Steve Bass] 12:14:21 Passport is a similar thing that raised questions, which is, oh, we don't really want to talk about that because that's too much like a pay-per-view sort of thing. [Steve Bass] 12:14:29 So I think now it's a matter of we've got to question our assumptions, and it's going to be, I think, healthy for us not to have that thing where we're limiting ourselves. [Steve Bass] 12:14:40 Um, and I think that's part of the challenge sometimes with federal… with government funding. When I was in Nashville, and I took over a station that was owned by the school board. [Steve Bass] 12:14:49 The way people would think there was very self-limiting, which was. [Steve Bass] 12:14:54 They were very concerned about the political body. The political body wasn't telling them what to do. They were reacting based on their impression of what could possibly happen. [Steve Bass] 12:15:03 We can put that aside now and think very rationally and clearly about where we need to go, and I think that's the most important thing. [Mike Janssen] 12:15:12 All right, well, thank you, Steve, and now I want to bring us to the audience level and look more at these questions of how we're dealing with fundamental shifts and how people are consuming media. [Mike Janssen] 12:15:20 Nathalie Hill is Chief Audience Officer at KCRW in Los Angeles. She leads audience growth and engagement, including marketing, communications, newsletters, social, events, membership, and art and branding. [Mike Janssen] 12:15:31 And before joining KCRW, she was the VP of Strategy and Content Marketing at Giant Spoon. [Mike Janssen] 12:15:36 an award-winning ad agency in Los Angeles and New York. So, and Nathalie, you told me that at KCRW, you're trying to think big picture as you look ahead, and more than federal funding, the enemy is how people are consuming media. [Mike Janssen] 12:15:50 What is KCRIW doing to respond to those trends? [Nathalie Hill] 12:15:52 Yeah, well, first of all, thank you, um, Steve, for your words. [Nathalie Hill] 12:15:56 And I am energized. Um, we are… we're excited. I'm so glad to have the opportunity to share what's going on with KCRW, and. [Nathalie Hill] 12:16:05 It's 100% right, um, you know, we knew. We had a gut feeling that the CPP funding was going to go away, but to us. [Nathalie Hill] 12:16:14 you know, the bigger enemy is the changing audience behaviors, and we know that we need to be easily discoverable and accessible. We can't just hope someone finds us by scrolling the dial, which is how people, you know, used to find us on the radio. And it doesn't matter how good our content is, if people can't find us or access us, so… the radio is still very important to us, and we've seen our radio listenership stabilize and even grow a little bit. And, you know, we're not really expecting people to change their behaviors. And so, you know, our goal is not to convince people who don't listen to the radio to listen to radio, but instead our radio strategy is to keep our current listeners listening longer. [Nathalie Hill] 12:16:56 with quality content and forward promotion, and that's really thanks to Izzy Smith. I know he's in the chat, um, for helping us with that strategy. But, um… Really, our North Star is to go boldly beyond radio. And there's four things that we're doing, really, to respond to these trends. The first one, I think everybody has heard, but we're doing it, which is we're investing in platforms where attention already lives. [Nathalie Hill] 12:17:20 For us, that's YouTube, social, newsletters, podcasts, and events. Um, but more importantly, we're really nimble in our approach because we know that things change so quickly. [Nathalie Hill] 12:17:30 Um, and so we need to be able to be flexible and pivot. [Nathalie Hill] 12:17:35 So in practice, that means that our content, audience, and tech teams work really closely together. I know in other organizations, you know, audience and content are completely separate. Tech's all the way over here. The people that I talk to the most are our Chief Content Officer and our CTO. Um, and our team's under us. [Nathalie Hill] 12:17:52 are all talking every day, all the time, um, making decisions together, and what happens is that we are able to make platform-specific experiences, decisions are made faster, any platform changes or algorithm changes can be implemented. We're using the right tools, and. [Nathalie Hill] 12:18:10 Probably the most important thing is that individuals are trained to do more themselves, and so we are able to, you know, experiment with YouTube Live, we're experimenting with Substack, but we're only able to do that with all of our teams working really closely together. [Nathalie Hill] 12:18:24 No silos. Um, the second is that with the rise of AI, we believe that strong personalities and expertise with a clear point of view have a much higher currency. [Nathalie Hill] 12:18:35 Um, so we're leveraging the strength of our talent, which is so important. These people are smart, they're trusted and charismatic, and our content, therefore, is both. [Nathalie Hill] 12:18:46 personality forward and brand forward. Um, so that, you know, all that means is that our culmination of all the different personalities that we have. [Nathalie Hill] 12:18:57 their taste, their knowledge, their smarts are what make KCRW what it is, and ultimately, all these people together and the community that we're making needs to be so unique and valuable that our audiences will follow us anywhere because who knows when a certain platform. [Nathalie Hill] 12:19:15 goes away, or if we need to leave a certain platform because of whatever reason, we left Twitter very early on, um, and we left, you know, 500,000 followers. [Nathalie Hill] 12:19:24 But we knew that we could build that community elsewhere because people knew what we stood for, um, and found us. [Nathalie Hill] 12:19:32 Um, the third one is that we lean so heavily on partnerships. I don't know how much other stations are leaning on their community partners. [Nathalie Hill] 12:19:41 Um, but we know that we can't win the volume game, so we use our friendships. Um, so we're continuing to find creative ways to partner with cool organizations that have shared audience values. [Nathalie Hill] 12:19:53 Um, so an example of that is we have a great KCRW Presents program that allows us to be a megaphone for concerts and events. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:01 That we believe in, and it's a win-win for both partners. We get to be associated with something really cool and get our name in front of their audience, and they get promotion, and there's. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:12 no money swapped. Um, so that really is a great way, um, to build our brand awareness. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:18 And then the last thing is that. Um, our end goal is to own the distribution channel, which is why we're investing so heavily into our app. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:27 So that it can become the product that people build a habit with, whether they listen to the radio or not. And then within the app, we've made becoming a member. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:36 so incredibly easy, directly in the app, um, trying to mimic things that maybe people are used to, whether it's Patreon or Substack. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:44 Um, we can't make donating and becoming a member so hard. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:50 And so, all of this that we're doing, you know, we're focusing on. [Nathalie Hill] 12:20:54 How can we convert people from these third-party platforms to our own digital products? And that seems to be the biggest challenge, but the one that I'm excited to tackle. [Mike Janssen] 12:21:05 Yeah, when we were talking leading up to this, I was really interested to hear more about the app that you've been working on, and the way you've been reimagining that. [Mike Janssen] 12:21:15 Um, you said that you're trying to make the app a connector between what people who interact with the app can hear and what they can do. [Mike Janssen] 12:21:22 And why do you think that's a direction that KCRW and Public Media need to go in? [Nathalie Hill] 12:21:28 Yeah, so we realized that a lot of our content was, um, making people feel closer to the city and the community. Uh, we weren't just telling stories, we were giving you recommendations, we were telling you about concerts and festivals and restaurants to try, um, neighborhoods that they should check out, um, and something that people tell us all the time is that we're their first friend in LA, which is like such a special. [Nathalie Hill] 12:21:52 role to play that goes way beyond just being an informer. Um… And so, if our audio is rooted in trusted discovery, how can we help people turn their discoveries into action? Um, so right now, just a sneak peek, we're currently working on our Explore LA feature of our app, where you can see curated lists and a searchable map of events and places as recommended by KCRW. And this feature links back to our content, so you can get content. [Mike Janssen] 12:22:07 Mm-hmm. [Nathalie Hill] 12:22:21 So, for example, if you're on the map and you're looking at restaurants and you see something that's interesting, um, when you click on it. [Nathalie Hill] 12:22:27 you can actually see that Evan Kleiman mentioned this restaurant on an episode of Good Food, and you can listen to the interview with the chef, or vice versa. If you're listening to the radio or you're listening to a podcast and let's say a DJ mentions an upcoming concert, you can see that actual concert mentioned in the audio player and bookmark that event directly in the app so you can remember. [Nathalie Hill] 12:22:50 And so, to zoom out, like, as I think about what civic engagement is, and I think a lot of people go to, like, oh, we should make a voting guide, which. [Nathalie Hill] 12:22:59 Also, very awesome. Um, I think getting people curious about the culture around them, getting them out of their homes, participating in the community is such a powerful way that we can provide a public service that goes beyond just. [Nathalie Hill] 12:23:12 storytelling or reporting. And, you know, we have that luxury, being a local station, where we can, you know, intensely, like, as Steve say, like, intensely focus on local, um, and find ways where we can help locals engage with one another and really fortify, you know, LA by getting people out and engaged, um, and caring about each other. [Mike Janssen] 12:23:35 That sounds great. Um, thank you so much. Um, no stations like KCRW are trying to respond to these new competitors. [Mike Janssen] 12:23:41 While also dealing with fewer resources, and that's something Erik Langner is helping to address. He's Executive Director of the Public Media Bridge Fund, and he's spent 20 years in national leadership roles in public broadcasting. [Nathalie Hill] 12:23:44 Yeah. [Mike Janssen] 12:23:52 He co-founded Information Equity Initiative, a nonprofit organization that helps to provide educational content to people who lack access to broadband. [Mike Janssen] 12:24:00 And previously, Erik spent 15 years at Public Media Company, where he structured dozens of mergers, acquisitions, and strategic partnerships. [Mike Janssen] 12:24:07 So, Erik, the Public Media Bridge Fund was formed in August, and it recently announced its first round of grants to stations. [Mike Janssen] 12:24:13 And you prescribed the initial phase of the bridge fund as a FEMA response to a hurricane, and you told me that the fund is about to start on a multi-year sustain and transform phase. [Mike Janssen] 12:24:22 what is that going to consist of? [Erik Langner] 12:24:24 Sure. Well, first, Mike and Chad, thanks for… thanks for inviting, um, us to be part of this. It's, um, we really appreciate it. [Erik Langner] 12:24:33 So, uh, now that we're through the very first phase, um. [Erik Langner] 12:24:39 Uh, which was to grant our resources to about 74 organizations. Um, we're now going to be launching a multi-year phase. Uh, we'll be opening that up here, um, probably in about a month. [Erik Langner] 12:24:52 Um, and that's really focused on multiple different strategies to drive both sustainability and innovation. [Erik Langner] 12:25:01 Um, I think it's important when we step back and look. [Erik Langner] 12:25:04 at the system, every organization is hurting right now. The loss of CPB. [Erik Langner] 12:25:11 was a tough blow. But in the macro sense, we as an industry have tremendous resources, 1,600 transmitters, over $3 billion of revenue. [Erik Langner] 12:25:25 18,000 or 19,000 employees, 4,000 journalists, local governance, local infrastructure. So. [Erik Langner] 12:25:32 Um, what we'll really be focusing on is how can we help stations drive new efficiencies through hub-and-spoke models, statewide collaborations, in some cases mergers. [Erik Langner] 12:25:43 How do we seed pilots that speak to things like fractional underwriting or fractional major gift officers or new digital platforms that can drive collaborative publishing and ad revenue on the digital side? [Erik Langner] 12:25:54 Um, so really, how do we create a bit of momentum. [Erik Langner] 12:25:59 Um, to get folks working together, recognizing that there's… there's… there's a lot of abundance in the system, we just need to figure out new ways to marshal those resources so that we can. [Erik Langner] 12:26:09 Uh, make sure that at the local level, the organizations can be as strong as possible. [Mike Janssen] 12:26:15 Um, funders, until now, have sometimes seen public media as slow to innovate behind the curve of digital trends, and that has, um, made public media a less attractive. [Mike Janssen] 12:26:26 Um, place to invest for them. Um, after this change with the rescission of federal funding, what's the appetite you're seeing among philanthropy to step in and support public media in this time of need? [Erik Langner] 12:26:37 Sure, well, when we started working with. Um, philanthropy, um, in the spring. Um, I think I saw Kyle might be even in the audience, so Schmidt, um, uh, family was, um, really helped. [Erik Langner] 12:26:51 Uh, work with us right from the beginning. And as we organized philanthropy, um… Once rescission happened, um, their interest really did accelerate, and that is a little bit different than what I think we saw over the last decade. [Erik Langner] 12:27:06 Um, and… Our sense is that philanthropy has come back. [Erik Langner] 12:27:11 Uh, to recognize the core role that public media plays, but I don't think any of us should take that for granted. I think the strong expectation. [Erik Langner] 12:27:20 from the funders that we're working with at the Bridge Fund, is that there will be change and momentum towards building and, um. [Erik Langner] 12:27:29 implementing new operating models that speak to both sustainability and innovation so that we can demonstrate to that community. [Erik Langner] 12:27:37 That, um, were viable, um, and that were dynamic, and that we're going to, um, make some really tough decisions over the next few years in light of the loss of CPB. [Mike Janssen] 12:27:48 For rural or native stations that. simply don't have a market dynamic to support them in this new environment. [Mike Janssen] 12:27:55 Do you see a realistic business model ahead without state or federal subsidies to depend on? [Erik Langner] 12:28:02 Um… that's… that's kind of the bitter… irony here is, um… the rural stations, the native stations, um… are often a sole source of information for a community. [Erik Langner] 12:28:18 Um, and also the ones where the business model is most challenged, because. [Erik Langner] 12:28:23 As broadcasters, we all know, when you have fixed transmission costs that reach. [Erik Langner] 12:28:29 a smaller pool of people, and especially if the folks that you're reaching have a lower incidence of broadband coverage, or lower incidence of disposable income. [Erik Langner] 12:28:40 Um, your service is hypercritical, but also much more challenging, and so. [Erik Langner] 12:28:45 Um, and, uh… what we'll be doing, and our program officer, Allie's… I know she's… she's listening in right now. [Erik Langner] 12:28:53 We're designing all kinds of coaching and wraparound service programs to work with our grantees. Many of those are in those rural communities. [Erik Langner] 12:29:01 To really focus on how can we help them work with other organizations in their region? How can we help them implement. [Erik Langner] 12:29:11 different strategies and best practices to either drive efficiencies or new revenues and new services. So. [Erik Langner] 12:29:17 Um, it's certainly tough without state or federal subsidies, but we're going to do everything we can to try to get them there. [Mike Janssen] 12:29:25 This is kind of dovetailing with something we were talking about with Steve earlier, but when we… when I was speaking with you before this, you were suggest… you suggested that CPB. [Mike Janssen] 12:29:33 slowed down innovation in public media because its funding was allowing stations to rely on their old business models. [Mike Janssen] 12:29:38 Um, so how does this current crisis provide the necessary jolt for the industry to move faster? [Erik Langner] 12:29:45 So I think I… If I set it in those terms, let me… let me… let me reframe it, because CPB… yeah, so CPB drove a tremendous amount of innovation, so it isn't… it isn't so much that CPB slowed down innovation, I think it's that. [Mike Janssen] 12:29:51 Sure, sure. [Mike Janssen] 12:29:59 Right. [Erik Langner] 12:30:02 stations that were accustomed to receiving a check from CPB every year. [Erik Langner] 12:30:09 had less reason to drive the sort of change that's going to be necessary now, which speak to both innovation and to driving more efficiency. So. [Erik Langner] 12:30:22 So, with that $550 or $600 million extracted from the system. [Erik Langner] 12:30:28 Um, we still have, like I mentioned, over $3 billion of revenue. [Erik Langner] 12:30:33 that circulates through the industry, now we're going to have to be a lot smarter. [Erik Langner] 12:30:38 in terms of what services are uniquely local. audience engagement, content, major donor relationships, and what services can be shared. [Erik Langner] 12:30:51 Uh, or outsourced. And I think that the biggest risk we have as an industry right now is, frankly, a bit of a prisoner's dilemma. [Erik Langner] 12:31:00 Where some organizations are going to want to hold on to complete operational autonomy. [Erik Langner] 12:31:06 over the information needs of their community. And so, leaders right now are going to have to really look at what is the mission of the organization, and are there ways to achieve that mission. [Erik Langner] 12:31:19 While altering the operating model, but retaining autonomy, retaining, um, and hopefully growing local content and local services. [Mike Janssen] 12:31:29 All right, thank you so much. Um, and now we're going to look at the current landscape from the creator's point of view, because creators of. [Mike Janssen] 12:31:36 shows and programs and journalism are also, of course, a very important part of the public media ecosystem. [Mike Janssen] 12:31:41 Loira Limbal has been President and CEO of Firelight Media since June of 2025. [Mike Janssen] 12:31:46 She previously worked for Firelight for 16 years in roles including lead consultant and senior vice president of programs. [Mike Janssen] 12:31:53 She led the expansion of Firelight's flagship documentary lab and the launch of projects including its Groundwork regional lab and its Impact Campaign Fund. [Mike Janssen] 12:32:01 Loira is also a multidisciplinary artist who works in documentary film and video installation, and as a DJ. [Mike Janssen] 12:32:06 Welcome, Loira! [Loira Limbal] 12:32:09 Hello, hi Mike. Thank you again, uh, for having me, including me in this conversation. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:16 so many wonderful, um, things have already been shared, a lot of resonance, so it's exciting to be here. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:23 Um, so yes, as Mike said, I am president and CEO of Firelight Media. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:29 And we exist to resource, support, and advocate on behalf of documentary filmmakers of color. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:36 Uh, and I will say that we exist within an ecosystem of organizations focused on doing this work. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:42 We do this work because we deeply believe in the power. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:47 Um, of documentary film to change people on a cellular level. [Loira Limbal] 12:32:53 like, a good song, like a good book, a good poem, um, you know, and as Nathalie said, the platforms do come and go, but. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:02 You know, to make the sort of metaphor, humans are never gonna stop making music, and we're never gonna stop needing music. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:08 We believe the same to be true about documentaries film, and so this is why we. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:14 We do the work that we do. And I am also a documentary filmmaker, so I'm actually, because of Mike's question and the framing, I'm actually going to put my filmmaker hat on for a second. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:25 and share a personal anecdote. Um, I've made two feature-length documentaries. Both of them have been. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:32 funded and, uh, broadcast by public media. And my last film is a film called Through the Night, which was funded by many entities in the public media system that focus on supporting independent documentary storytelling. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:47 Um, including ITVS and many others, and the film broadcasts on POV. Shout out to POV, I think there are folks in the… in the audience from POV here. [Loira Limbal] 12:33:58 Um, and the film documents the sort of life and everyday reality of a 24-hour daycare center in New York. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:07 Um, the film follows a pediatric ER nurse who works the night shift, a grocery worker, and the woman who cares for their children. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:17 Uh, literally through the night, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:22 Um, this is a film that would not have existed without public media funding. It would not have existed without public media distribution. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:31 It is clearly a film that does not fit the commercial formula of crime, celebrity, and cults. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:38 It is none of those things, and so it would not have existed or found a home anywhere else. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:43 Despite this being a story that touches, um, all people in the United States, whether they're parents or not, the people. [Loira Limbal] 12:34:52 Um, depicted in the film are the people that many of us interact with every day, whose labor we rely on, um, and who are essential parts of our communities, right? The people we came to know as essential workers during the pandemic. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:04 Uh, and it's also a film about the crumbling, uh, or. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:09 somewhat non-existent social safety net in the United States. So this is a story that impacts everyone. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:15 And is at the top of, sort of, the affordability crisis conversation. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:20 That, um, everyone is having in every corner of this country, but it would not have found a home on any of the commercial platforms, right? [Loira Limbal] 12:35:29 like my phone, the films that we support at Firelight are the same. They're critical, vital. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:35 Um, stories about our past, about our current realities that help us reimagine what a potential better future could look like. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:43 That, um, only are possible by the public media ecosystem, and that ecosystem right now with the defunding of CPB. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:54 Um, have been just really debilitated. You know, I don't know how else to put it, um. [Loira Limbal] 12:35:59 It's an ecosystem that includes organizations like ours, um, CPB was about 40%. [Loira Limbal] 12:36:06 of our funding, so that's 40%. that's gone, that we don't know if we will be able to replace, um, the organizations that are part of the National Multicultural Alliance. It impacts the folks that champion this kind of work, like ITVS and independent lens and POV. [Loira Limbal] 12:36:24 the many public television stations that also champion this work. [Loira Limbal] 12:36:29 Um, and also a sort of… Um, consequence of it all is that the non-profit. [Loira Limbal] 12:36:37 part of the ecosystem and the private philanthropy part of the ecosystem is also impacted, because oftentimes this work requires a sort of web of supporters and partnerships. [Loira Limbal] 12:36:49 Where an independent filmmaker could leverage. PBS funding, um, or PBS broadcast to get funding from a private philanthropy, or from a non-profit, or from someone else. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:01 And with that gone, there's a whole sort of overall chilling effect, um, not only on. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:09 the content or the films themselves, but the infrastructure that makes. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:13 the making of these films possible. [Mike Janssen] 12:37:16 Definitely. Um, so in this moment, what role do you think public media should play in keeping these stories told by documentary filmmakers in front of audiences? And what needs to change for public media to do that well? [Loira Limbal] 12:37:29 Yes, um, so I think we need clarity of purpose. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:33 Um, and courage. I heard… I saw someone in the chat ask, what is our service model? And obviously, we have to balance. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:42 Um, business models and business models that are viable, but also asking ourselves, like, what is our mission? What is our purpose? And service. [Loira Limbal] 12:37:51 Certainty has to be a part of that, right? And so, thinking of what is that balancing tool? [Loira Limbal] 12:37:56 our service model versus our business model. Um, I've worked in this space, you know, for somewhat over 20 years because, again, I believe so deeply. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:05 on the power of this work, and I think. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:08 Public media also sort of very courageously embrace this work as part of a sort of an essential. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:17 Um, ecosystem of narrative and information, um, at times. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:23 the relationship between, sort of, public media at large and this sector of the work, uh, with independence and communities of color. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:32 The relationship has felt somewhat separate or half-hearted, you know, the commitments, um, and the embracing of this work, and I think we need to. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:41 Embrace it courageously, um, not instead of journalism, not instead of children's programming, not instead of science programming, but alongside it as a vital part, once again. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:52 of a healthy, vibrant narrative ecosystem, information ecosystem for our communities. [Loira Limbal] 12:38:58 I also think, um, we need to sort of fully acknowledge. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:04 that this work of diversity and inclusion isn't just some sort of, um, boring workshop that your company forces you to. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:13 partake in, or words on, uh, the current administration's list, right, that are. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:21 contentious and problematic, this is work that's essential for us to. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:27 really have a shot at building the multicultural, multiracial democracy that we say that we are trying to be. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:35 Um, clearly, you know, if a sort of… short look around, uh, it's inconvenient to sort of grapple with the legacy, right? But. [Loira Limbal] 12:39:45 we look at the violence and the harm that's being done to our neighbors in Minneapolis and across many other U.S. Cities, and that confirms that we still have a lot of work left to do to truthfully tell the history of this story and to properly document and reflect the reality of its current day. [Loira Limbal] 12:40:03 Um, we need to disrupt harmful narratives of the past and nurture new, um, narratives that can nurture our collective imaginations and help us envision something better for all of us. And I think public media, once again. [Loira Limbal] 12:40:17 If we put service, um… and diversity, and inclusion, um, and innovation really at the heart, not in a half-hearted way, not in a timid type of way, but in a way where we recognize it as essential and central. [Loira Limbal] 12:40:33 that too will help us, um, figure out the way forward. [Mike Janssen] 12:40:37 Alright, well, thank you so much. This has really been a great discussion so far, and I've got more questions I can ask you all if we need them, but I also want to hear from the chat and from. [Mike Janssen] 12:40:46 you guys, if you have anything you want to ask each other, um, Chad, do you want to jump in here with any. [Mike Janssen] 12:40:51 Questions from the audience? [Chad Davis] 12:40:54 We've gotten a couple, and some have been picked up in the chat as well, but let me just kind of roll through. [Chad Davis] 12:41:01 David Buffa, um… Had a couple of questions. Those of you who had implemented these practices, this came in during Nathalie's section. [Chad Davis] 12:41:10 So he says, like Nathalie, uh, how do you get buy-in from leadership? [Chad Davis] 12:41:15 Were you able to get enthusiastic support, or was it a struggle? [Chad Davis] 12:41:19 And have you been able. to find ways to make these approaches outside of broadcast, financially. [Chad Davis] 12:41:26 sustainable, he closes with one of the pushbacks I've gotten is the digital world doesn't provide a comp… comparable revenue stream. So, Nathalie, maybe you want to take that, and Loira can pick up, too. [Nathalie Hill] 12:41:37 Yeah… Yeah, let me try to break that question up. [Nathalie Hill] 12:41:42 The first about leadership. I guess it helps that I'm in leadership, so I just force… no, I'm just kidding. Um, we have an amazing leadership team at KCRW, um, and I think it's. [Nathalie Hill] 12:41:53 partially the makeup of the team, there's some people like Jen Farrow is our. [Nathalie Hill] 12:42:00 CEO and President, and it's just amazing, um, and such a forward thinker, um, but also has a really long history with the public radio system. [Nathalie Hill] 12:42:11 But we also have, you know, our disciples, our Chief Content Officer, um, and he comes from NPR. [Nathalie Hill] 12:42:18 Um, I didn't even come from public radio. Our COO didn't come from public radio. She came from, um… more digital content production and working with, um, influencers, and it's just… you kind of have to cobble together a team that all understands what is the situation at hand and what are decisions that we're going to have to make, but it only works if we're all on the same page. [Nathalie Hill] 12:42:45 Um, and so we spent a lot of time as an executive team. [Nathalie Hill] 12:42:49 coming up with a strategic plan that had enough flexibility, but a strong North Star, so that when our teams, you know, had questions. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:00 I knew that Arnie, our chief content officer, and I had each other's backs. We're on the same page, and we were all saying the same thing, and I think that's really important. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:10 I think when it comes to, um, the second part of the question, which was more about, um. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:16 revenue, um, and conversion. It is something that we are looking into, and it's a huge challenge for everyone, because I think the majority of people's revenue from individual giving comes from pledge drives, which comes from linear listening. And for us, we've started to see glimmers of hope. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:35 Especially an email conversion. Um, so email acquisition is a huge, um. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:41 initiative for us, and newsletters is part of that. Um, the app is the other thing, so we've been really trying to figure out how. [Nathalie Hill] 12:43:50 to think about membership differently, and think about ways to get people to convert via our app, and we just launched our app. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:00 Um, in September of last year, and we're already seeing so many donations. We had. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:06 someone becoming a member every single day since launch, um, because we made it so easy. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:12 to become a member, it made it so clear about what you get when you become a member and what you're supporting. Um, and sometimes I think we… aren't as, um, bold or, uh, blatant as possible. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:26 Um, about what it means to be a member, um, what you may get as a member, um, but I think. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:33 it's really hard to attribute anything to what's that one thing that caused someone to convert because it's probably 10 different touchpoints and then just one thing happened to convert someone. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:44 Um, and so… something that we've been thinking about is how it's not just one channel. [Nathalie Hill] 12:44:52 That's your acquisition… channel, and then we just put everything into that. Um, but really thinking about it holistically and making sure that we're meeting people where they are, we're, um, finding ways to bring them down the funnel. So, for an example. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:07 it's really hard to convert people from Instagram to membership. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:12 Um, but we found out that events and giveaways are a really great way to get people's email acquisition, um, through RSVPs. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:21 Or through those giveaways. Um, and so that's a huge strategy for us, of how to get people off Instagram and then into, um. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:30 our system where we can give them newsletter content, we can show our value, we can entertain, we can. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:35 put our personalities in front of them, and then ultimately, if you're. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:39 becoming a, um… if you're creating products that are building relationships through personalities, and then that personality says, hey, do you love this? Is this valuable to you? Do you want to support this? We've seen that people are willing to support other people, and so we don't really treat it as, did this TikTok video. [Nathalie Hill] 12:45:59 create membership. It's did this relationship, did this value, um, that we're building create, um… create membership. Um, and so it's probably not a very good answer, but I would just say really think about how are you building relationships? How are you making sure you're not creating dead ends, so always trying to figure out how to bring someone through to the funnel, but you can best do that through. [Nathalie Hill] 12:46:23 Relationships. [Loira Limbal] 12:46:26 I want to just, uh, jump in very quickly. I'll be brief, um, but I think between this question and Nathalie's response, and something that Steve said earlier when he. [Loira Limbal] 12:46:37 invited station folks to really look and ask themselves, am I the person. [Loira Limbal] 12:46:43 to lead the station through, um, what's ahead. I think. [Loira Limbal] 12:46:47 That's critical, right? Like, the leadership piece is critical, and the leadership of the public media system. [Loira Limbal] 12:46:55 SKU's older, excuse white, it skews male. That is a problem. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:00 That has also weakened us, um, in every, you know, in every way imaginable, and so I think at this moment of systems collapse, where we're rethinking all the things, it's an opportunity to also rethink that. I'm not saying that everyone over a certain age, you know, needs to quit their… retire tomorrow, or quit their job tomorrow. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:20 But that we need to have intergenerational teams experience that comes with age is valuable and important. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:27 But so is youth, innovation, fresh ideas, the currency and irrelevance with what is happening in the world today. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:34 Those things, like that, sort of the… picture of public media leadership that you see when you attend a PBS annual meeting. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:44 desperately needs to change if we are to have any kind of. [Loira Limbal] 12:47:48 healthy, viable public media ecosystem. [Chad Davis] 12:47:55 Uh, you know, I'll just echo that very quickly, um, as the kind of producer of this webinar. [Chad Davis] 12:48:02 There's no shortage of. Of, you know, uh… White guys out there who can speak to what's happening currently in public media analyst. [Chad Davis] 12:48:12 of non-white guys is much shorter, and that is a shame, frankly. We do what we can, um, for sure, but, um, you make an excellent. [Chad Davis] 12:48:22 point. Um… So we've got some more questions. Um, I'm going to elevate this one, just because I want to, uh. [Chad Davis] 12:48:29 just hear what folks think about this. There was a little bit of going back and forth in the chat, but Margaret Miller. [Chad Davis] 12:48:35 Uh, as governance holder models have to evolve. Any thoughts on that? Does anyone want to… jump into just maybe either summarize what they said in the chat, or throw some fresh thoughts in. [Steve Bass] 12:48:48 I said a couple things in the chat, um… I mean, I think they do, and I think in some ways. [Steve Bass] 12:48:55 we also have to alter our thinking, which is… in some ways, you know, with CPB, we were always organized around broadcast licenses, because that was the, kind of, the gateway to get funding. [Steve Bass] 12:49:10 And we also had to kind of… you were a radio grantee, or you were a TV grantee, and if you were a so-called joint licensee, you were both. [Steve Bass] 12:49:18 That world is gone. Um, we still operate on licensed spectrum. [Steve Bass] 12:49:24 But I think what we need to start. thinking more about is that these institutions are local civic. [Steve Bass] 12:49:32 organizations that need to be governed appropriately. I have some concerns about, um, state governance of public broadcasting. [Steve Bass] 12:49:43 I think we've seen problems prop up, um, occasionally. I think it's probably pretty challenging right now to be running a state. [Steve Bass] 12:49:53 governed and funded network in a red state. We also saw what happened in Arkansas recently. I just saw something about Wyoming facing a potential defunding fight. [Steve Bass] 12:50:04 So there's a lot going on there, and I think. [Steve Bass] 12:50:08 longer term. They're going to be more pressures on public media to figure out what is an appropriate governance structure, and I will not say that I know the answer to that, because I think the answer to that is more local. [Steve Bass] 12:50:22 than it is, and it's situational, which is… There's some state governments that have been wonderful stewards. There's some universities that have been wonderful stewards, and there are also some that have not been good stewards, and that's really the challenge. [Steve Bass] 12:50:35 Uh, that we're facing. So, no answer to that, just some comments. [Chad Davis] 12:50:43 Erik, you wanna… you unmuted, go for it. [Erik Langner] 12:50:44 Yeah, I… I agree with that, that… that working towards establishing a local ecosystem for information, um, both through partnerships and different platforms, is going to be the path forward. [Erik Langner] 12:50:59 But I also think, as an industry, we have to probably set radio and TV into separate sides to some extent when it comes to this. [Erik Langner] 12:51:10 it's about 75 or 80% of revenue on the radio side is still terrestrial-focused. Um, on the TV side, if you take out hitting the cable head end over the air. [Erik Langner] 12:51:23 It's maybe 15% rabbit ears, uh, right? So you have, uh, and you have significantly higher operating costs on the TV side when it comes to. [Erik Langner] 12:51:34 tower equipment, electricity, engineering, and so forth. So, I think as we think about service and content and engagement, there's a very different operating reality. [Erik Langner] 12:51:44 And frankly, radio is more likely to go wall-to-wall during an emergency in terms of the hyperlocal value to the community. And so I think that the timelines for both. [Erik Langner] 12:51:57 Uh, radio and TV look very different in terms of the reliance and the, um, uh, on terrestrial. [Erik Langner] 12:52:03 Um, as we look forward several years. [Chad Davis] 12:52:09 Um, Hallie, uh, put a question in. It's, uh, got a little bit of a preamble, I'll read it here real quick. Um, NPR has been the catch-all. [Chad Davis] 12:52:17 I think the, kind of, NPR air quotes, has been the catch-all to describe all of Public Radio for many people, less so for larger markets, she is sure. [Chad Davis] 12:52:27 Um, and she agrees that they shouldn't be the primary standard bearer and organizer in this new era, but what does that new decentralized identity look like? What can it look like, I would say? [Chad Davis] 12:52:38 Is there some collaborative awareness campaigns. or similar to begin working towards? Like, how do we begin to redefine in this new era? [Chad Davis] 12:52:52 All right, Hallie stumped everybody, so… [Chad Davis] 12:53:02 Alright, well, dead air, so we… Let me move on to a… Yeah, everyone dwell on that for a moment, um, but, um, so I'll pull one from Doug Chang. [Mike Janssen] 12:53:07 Let that one simmer. [Chad Davis] 12:53:14 I don't. Um, what can we, as independent producers and others, technically outside of the station system. [Chad Davis] 12:53:22 Um, though I will say Doug has deep experience in the system. Um, but still committed to public media, what can we do to support this new environment? Loira, I feel like that's kind of one you might be able to… do you want to take a stab at? [Chad Davis] 12:53:35 Uh, folks who are on the outside looking in and want to help. [Loira Limbal] 12:53:39 Yes, absolutely, and I actually think, um… I'm gonna go also go back to something that Steve said, and your earlier comments about the. [Loira Limbal] 12:53:48 the ecosystem that existed. Um, before, uh, the public broadcasting Act and. [Loira Limbal] 12:53:56 Um, we are all still here. Right, so our… Organizing, uh, sort of, uh, web or infrastructure that has. [Loira Limbal] 12:54:06 gone, that's… it's fallen out, right? The bottom has bottomed out. That's gone, but we're still here. [Loira Limbal] 12:54:12 Uh, and again, we have to all ask ourselves, do I have the energy to really, um, put up a fight? Because it's a fight, you know? We know all the things that are happening in this country right now. We know why public media was attacked. [Loira Limbal] 12:54:27 defunded, um, you know, and dissolved within one year of this current administration, that this is all part of a lot of other very concerning things that are happening in this country. So this is the fight that we're in. [Loira Limbal] 12:54:39 But we are here, and I think we have to be really, um, open, very curious, and creative, and lean in on partnership. [Loira Limbal] 12:54:48 Um, experimentation, I think that really… I know that's, like, cliche and it's not super concrete, but it… You know, all of us are, even on this, um, on this webinar, the panelists, we're representing different parts of this public media ecosystem. We're spread across the country, right? There's so much, um, sort of nuance and diversity in who we are, who we represent, what we do. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:13 Um, that it's hard to sort of, you know, list out a bunch of solutions, but I do think that. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:19 The way forward is together is through curiosity, is through partnership and collaboration. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:25 And so, for folks that are outside of the system, support that. Um, and whatever, you know, your sort of best position. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:32 to support, um, you know, obviously I'm directly in contact with, uh. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:37 private philanthropy and funders who have supported the creation of nonfiction and documentary storytelling. And so what those folks, we're activating them in particular ways. [Loira Limbal] 12:55:47 There are all the efforts that have happened recently to support, um, you know, particularly rural stations and stations in Native American communities. I know the Ford, MacArthur, and I believe it was, um. [Loira Limbal] 12:56:02 Kellogg. There were 3 major foundations that came together to put forth, I want to say it was something like $15 million to stabilize. [Loira Limbal] 12:56:11 Spacious and rural communities. So, you know, again, I think whatever your most uniquely positioned to support, there's something for everyone, because the system is that complex and that diverse, so… Um, I would say, you know, reach out, and through partnership and collaboration. [Loira Limbal] 12:56:27 We will figure something out. You know, there was something before, we're still here, we'll figure it out. [Chad Davis] 12:56:35 Uh, fast question for Erik, is the Bridge Fund supporting production? [Erik Langner] 12:56:41 Um, I would… I'd say at the closest indirectly, we're working very hard to. [Erik Langner] 12:56:47 increase capacity so that there can be more production, either at the station or through partnerships in the community with other journalists and filmmakers or other, as Rich Eisworth mentioned, um, or with other non-profit news organizations that can and should be partnering up with public media organizations and communities around the country. [Chad Davis] 12:57:12 Well, thanks, Erik. Um… Memory serves… Amanda may be with us here in Colorado, actually, too, just as an FYI. [Chad Davis] 12:57:20 Um, one more question I think we got time for, um, this, uh, Richard Eisworth, I think hopefully I'm pronouncing that right. Um, as we redefine public meaning for the future, what role, if any, should non-broadcast, non-profit journalism. [Chad Davis] 12:57:34 play. It's a great question. I've wondered why, other than transmitters and sticks, why we didn't include organizations like that in the public media definition for a while. So, does anyone want to weigh in on. [Chad Davis] 12:57:45 On that one. [Steve Bass] 12:57:46 Well, I'll start with that as to say I've always been interested in partnering with. [Steve Bass] 12:57:52 all sorts of media, and I think it's essential, and I think, you know, part of the public media ethic. [Steve Bass] 12:57:59 you know, in the past, when we were, you know. [Steve Bass] 12:58:01 very broadcast-centered. We still are, but… was we want to bring people to us, and we're now in an environment in which we need to bring ourselves to people. [Steve Bass] 12:58:11 So, starting about… oh, it's probably been more than a dozen years at OPB, we started a very vibrant content-sharing network with commercial media and non-profit media, which is basically, we would share our stuff with everybody as long as it was attributed. [Steve Bass] 12:58:28 carried our brand, because the notion was. if our content is reaching audiences on platforms where we wouldn't reach them otherwise, that's a good thing, and vice versa. If we can amplify good journalism through our channels. [Steve Bass] 12:58:42 That's good for the community. That, I don't know, has been a universal kind of value in public media, and I think we need to think more like that, is that how can we be the center of a local ecosystem that is desperately in need of a centering. [Steve Bass] 12:58:58 We are never going to approach the size and scale of. [Steve Bass] 12:59:03 Daily newspapers as they were 20 years ago. But if we were to combine our own assets with those of entities in the community, we might at least get. [Steve Bass] 12:59:14 close, or approximator, or get halfway there. So I think this is going to be essential, and it's not a loss to us that we're calling attention to other people's content. [Steve Bass] 12:59:23 I mean, heck, we've done that for years. just a matter of how do we do it, and what are the rules of the road. [Erik Langner] 12:59:34 I might just, um… I might just add that, you know, the Polar Broadcasting Act hasn't been. [Erik Langner] 12:59:42 refined in a very, very long time, and it was… grounded in broadcast, and I think if federal funding were to come back, um… And even if it doesn't, I think the definition of public media is going to keep evolving in terms of how are we serving our communities. Um, so that's… that's… [Erik Langner] 13:00:04 So… so I think whether it's through philanthropy, through the government, um, opening ourselves up to that reality and embracing it, um, is going to be the best way to serve the community. [Erik Langner] 13:00:16 Um, my strong point of view is. the foundation that's been built across public media over the last 60 years and the tens of billions of dollars of investment that have gone into it, that should be the foundation that we evolve from. [Erik Langner] 13:00:30 Um, as we redefine what public media will be going forward, and so. [Erik Langner] 13:00:35 Um, we've built something really incredible within this ecosystem, and it's… it's worth saving, it's worth growing, it's worth evolving. So as the definition changes, I think we have the core mission. [Erik Langner] 13:00:50 and commitment to our local communities to serve as a foundational case for whatever's going to come next. [Chad Davis] 13:00:58 We are just about to time. Um, Nathalie had, uh, her computer just randomly died, so she did not mic drop and, uh, totally walk out on us. [Chad Davis] 13:01:07 She's trying to reconnect. Um, Loira, do you want to weigh in with any last thoughts? We want to start to wrap up, I think. [Loira Limbal] 13:01:15 No, I just want to say that I needed this conversation, so thank you all for inviting me and, um, for having me on with these panelists. [Loira Limbal] 13:01:24 Um, because it's really clear that if we center the mission. [Loira Limbal] 13:01:29 We sent our community's needs, um, and we have that clarity of purpose, we will find a way forward. [Chad Davis] 13:01:38 Um, well, um… Thank you, Mike, for hosting and helping me… there were lots of, uh, Slack messages over the holiday between Mike and I and Trent. [Chad Davis] 13:01:49 kind of put this together, so thank you for, for, um, making this happen. [Chad Davis] 13:01:53 Um, I'll, uh, say that this whole webinar series, there's, like, a newsletter that sort of runs parallel to it. I'll put it in the chat. [Chad Davis] 13:02:02 I was checking out, maybe, like, get sign-up if you do. Um, and, um, we have not locked down February yet, so I can't announce our February webinar, but, uh, keep an eye out, and we will be rolling that out. [Chad Davis] 13:02:15 Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. So, um, so thanks again, Mike. Thank you. In order of. [Chad Davis] 13:02:21 block on my screen. Erik, Loira, Steve, and Nathalie, not pictured currently. [Chad Davis] 13:02:27 Uh, for doing this. I very much appreciate it, and everyone have a… have a great, uh, start to your 2026. We'll see you soon. [Mike Janssen] 13:02:35 Thanks so much, everyone. [Loira Limbal] 13:02:36 Thank you. Take good care.